Monday, January 05, 2009

The Real Strength of Israel

Israel's strength is not just its air superiority or its sophisticated weaponry or its well trained army, Israel's real strength is its democracy.

This is a picture of Israelis Jews and Israeli Arabs, demonstrating against the Gaza war. This is why we want democracy for Iran, it will make us truly strong.

Be fair, what would happen if a demonstration against Hamas took place in Iran? What would happen to those who took part in the demo?

Imagine if Jews living in an Arab country demonstrated in favour of Israel's actions to stop Hamas rockets. Imagine if a small group of Gaza residents demonstrated against Hamas and asked Hamas to negotiate with Israel, what would happen to them?

22 comments:

Winston said...

A very good point. But those people in that demo are misguided to say the least and suicidal at worst

ConservativeLA said...

I greatly admire those such as Zuhdi Jasser and yourself. My heart goes out to that Palestinian girl on Al Jazeera who courageously, foolishly named the evil in Gaza: Hamas.

My fear is that Islam is so infected with this racist, hateful ideology of Islamist Jew-hating that ignorance and a love of death wins out over light.

I sincerely hope that my fears will ultimately be proved ridiculous.

Regards! I think of exiled, freedom-loving Iranians in much the same way as I think of exiled, freedom-loving Cubans: with much respect.

barmakid said...

Haha...you and your pics. You're always trying to make grand points with a single pic. It's comical.

Ya might as well say, "Oh, well...it's okay that the United States sanctioned slavery and disenfranchised black people (and women)as long as they allowed people to protest."

Azarmehr said...

Barmakid,

And what is the relevance of that comical statement? Are Israeli Arabs slaves? Are black Jews disenfranchised in Israel? Are Israeli women disenfranchised?

You do scrape the bottom of the toilet sometimes to come up with some thing to say.

barmakid said...

Sigh....I'm not comparing the exact crimes, just the fact that both states committed equally atrocious crimes (whether it be codified discrimination or launching unjust wars that cost thousands of lives) - but you're saying its okay because at least people could protest. Comical.

barmakid

p.s. And if you don't think that Israel discriminates against Arabs living inside Israel you are OUT OF YOUR MIND. Indeed, they endure a similar condition to American black folks in the 60s.

Keep living in your fantasy land.

barmakid said...

"Despite the State's 60 years, we have not yet reached a suitable relationship with the Arab citizens of Israel....We have not yet overcome the barrier of discrimination, which is a deliberate discrimination and the gap is insufferable...A cycle has been created whereby on the one hand, the Arab population did not know how to establish a proper management system and on the other hand governments have denied them their rights to improve their quality of life."

- PM Ehud Olmert

From the Association of Israeli Civil Rights:

Association for Civil Rights published report probing bias in Israel in 2008, says Israeli Arabs systematically discriminated against, as are immigrants. Women, handicapped suffer bias in the workplace and situation in West Bank 'reminiscent of apartheid in South Africa'....

"Exploring the matter of discrimination, the report states that since the inception of the State of Israel, Israeli Arabs have been subject to discrimination via legislation, the allocation of resources and through the existence of bodies such as the Jewish Agency and Jewish National Fund....

With some 90,000 Arabs living in mixed cities, the differences between the Jewish and Arab neighborhoods is evident is all aspects of life and the fabric of the relations between the Arab and Jews living in these cities is riddled with violence and racism, as seen in the Yom Kippur riots in Akko.



The report goes on to note severe discrimination in the allocation of housing land, saying that while the Arab population had grown seven times over since 1948, about 50% of the land previously owned by Arab has been confiscated. Moreover, while 600 Jewish communities have been established since 1948, no new Arab ones have been formed. "


You can still live in your fantasy land, or you can finish reading the article at this link and come to terms with reality:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3634382,00.html

barmakid

barmakid said...

This is not about Hamas, this is about human life. Hamas is just a scapegoat, a way to justify this unjustified brutality waged against helpless civilians.

Watch this Norwegian doctor helping in Palestine. What reason does he have top be biased?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

barkiri, why are you a moron?

barmakid said...

From Avi Shlaim:

"I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel...

Israel likes to portray itself as an island of democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. Yet Israel has never in its entire history done anything to promote democracy on the Arab side and has done a great deal to undermine it. Israel has a long history of secret collaboration with reactionary Arab regimes to suppress Palestinian nationalism. Despite all the handicaps, the Palestinian people succeeded in building the only genuine democracy in the Arab world with the possible exception of Lebanon. In January 2006, free and fair elections for the Legislative Council of the Palestinian Authority brought to power a Hamas-led government. Israel, however, refused to recognise the democratically elected government, claiming that Hamas is purely and simply a terrorist organisation.

America and the EU shamelessly joined Israel in ostracising and demonising the Hamas government and in trying to bring it down by withholding tax revenues and foreign aid. A surreal situation thus developed with a significant part of the international community imposing economic sanctions not against the occupier but against the occupied, not against the oppressor but against the oppressed.

As so often in the tragic history of Palestine, the victims were blamed for their own misfortunes. Israel's propaganda machine persistently purveyed the notion that the Palestinians are terrorists, that they reject coexistence with the Jewish state, that their nationalism is little more than antisemitism, that Hamas is just a bunch of religious fanatics and that Islam is incompatible with democracy. But the simple truth is that the Palestinian people are a normal people with normal aspirations. They are no better but they are no worse than any other national group. What they aspire to, above all, is a piece of land to call their own on which to live in freedom and dignity."

peace,
barmakid

Azarmehr said...

what the Norwegian doctor does is very admirable, I was talking about useful idiots who go to demos under Hamas flag.

If you want to demonstrate against the loss of innocent life thats fine as long as you are not under a Hamas banner and condemn the atrocities on both sides, or better still do what the Norwegian doctor does.

Azarmehr said...

Why should Israel promote democracy in the Arab world, surely its up to the Arabs themselves. Its like saying Arabs should promote democracy in Israel!!!

Also democracy is not just about winning elections. If Hamas won elections why does that justify them killing Fatah rivals? Imagine if the Democrats win the elections and they start killing Republicans and then say but we won the elections! So what winning elections does not entitle you to commit atrocities.

barmakid said...

Azarmehr,

Your statements come out of a misunderstanding of the conflict. It is not Israel's prerogative to promote democracy in OTHER Arab countries; we are talking about Arabs inside Israel - not outside of it. (How can Israel be a democracy if millions of its Arab citizens aren't accorded the same rights as its Jewish citizens?) The association of Israeli civil rights comparison to Apartheid South Africa is an apt one.

And yes, Hamas was democratically elected, just like Abraham Lincoln - what happened after that?

You can't expect democracy to just flourish because you and others think it is the best form of government.

I used this quote in the previous thread, but it's more apt in this thread:

"Democracy is just a word when your people are starving and dieing."

May Justice and Reason Prevail,
Barmakid

reza said...

This war was very disheartening.

On the one hand, we have a puritanical Islamist organization (Hamas) which exploits the phrase 'resistance to occupation' as a means to manufacturing their ideological doctrine.

On the other hand, we have a military adversary which will indiscriminately maximize the civilian death toll in order to eradicate the latter cult (which also is a messianic forecast for many).

This is what religion does to the world. It transforms human decency into a carnivorous impetus for shedding blood, all because of what a few ignorant tribes hallucinated about, some 1000/2000 years ago.

Such a shame.

Anonymous said...

Potkin,

You got this one wrong, the concept of human rights means and Israel...

barmakid said...

For some "reason" my response did not get published. was this deliberate, because I don't want to rewrite it if it's not going to be published again

Azarmehr said...

Everything has been published, except some foul swear words at you by an anonymous. Were you swearing at yourself? was that you?

barmakid said...

No I was not swearing at myself, haha. Why would I do that?

What I wrote was a response to your last statement. I said that it's not about Israel supporting democracy in other Arab countries (that's ridiculous), but in Israel itself.

Furthermore, you can't expect Democracy to just flourish just because we think it's the best system of government. Hamas was elected democratically, yes, but so was Republican presidential candidate Abraham Lincoln - what happened after that? Get my drift?

Not to mention all the African countries who elect their leaders democratically and later trip into a civil war or a genocide.

Like I've said before, "democracy is just a word when your people are starving and dieing."

barmakid,

p.s. Thank you for not publishing what you said you didn't by "anonymous."

Azarmehr said...

Barmakid,

Ok lets say for arguments sake that Israeli Arabs do not have full rights and are discriminated against. However you can't say that Christians in Gaza are discriminated against, coz there are no Christians left in Gaza, and as for Jews in Gaza....:)))

Benjamin Gray said...

Barmakid, while you are right about the problems pure democracy poses; these have been known for milennia, stretching as far back as Plato's discourses with Livy. That's why additional elements, such as constitutionalism, the rule of law and civil, political and human rights are introduced into the question of legitimacy.

Your claim that the right to protest and demonstration is invalidated because the countries that have it have engaged in unpleasant past behaviours is utterly illogical. How did blacks achieve civil and political equality in the US? Through protest and demonstration, first by the Abolitionists, then by the Civil Rights movement.

Anonymous said...

"coz there are no Christians left in Gaza"

It's a blatant lie. There are a lot of palestinian christians left in Gaza . I know, I've seen them. And believe it or not, they are very well treated by their muslim brethren. Catholics and orthodox christians.

You're completely blind to the discrimination against every non-jew in Israel, not to mention what they do to palestinian MUSLIMS and CHRISTIANS - yes, both of them.

Unknown said...

Hamas rule in Gaza is not democratic - True
There are christians in Gaza - True
Christians in Gaza suffer some kind of persecution - True
Israel -inside his internationally recognized borders AKA 67' borders- is a democracy - True (according by a large list of NGO and prestigious non-partisan political scientist Israel is a democracy since their inception or since 1966 with the end of he 'martial law'
The arab-palestinian citizens of Israel have full political, civil, social, economic and cultural rights by law - Almost true (there is some laws with discriminatory effects in land administration issues and other discriminatory practices in allocation of municipal resources)